its not that a bat boat would make batman less realistic just that it would make him cheesier. There are certain things that must be left for the comics and animated shows. One of these examples is robin. While i like robin in the comics and cartoons, hes a completeley corny character in the movies. If we saw batman zooming around in a "bat-bike" in The Dark Knight it would look pretty corny, especially since nolan's rendition of batman is a more visceral, aggresive batman, depending more on physical prowess and martial arts knowledge than over the top gadgets like remote tracking batarangs(batman returns) or bat-shark-repellant spray...In nolan's gotham city, i dont see the need for batman to ever have a bat-boat, and the batmobile would be just enough transportation. Like i said, if nolan were to introduce the idea of batman going high-tech and getting a bat-boat or bike or something, i'd prefer it be kept off camera, and in concept. Such as Batman ASPIRING to create one and creating blueprints, but it never being shown in the movie, kind of leaving the third batman movie to end in a way that shows us that this batman is now becoming the TRUE dark knight.
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 13-11-2006 08:38
Posts: 726 Location: The Shadow Of St Albans Abbey Joined: 28.07.06
TheDarkKnight666 wrote:
Like i said, if nolan were to introduce the idea of batman going high-tech and getting a bat-boat or bike or something, i'd prefer it be kept off camera, and in concept.
But surely TDK666, Wayne Enterprises/Lucius Fox (as portrayed in Begins) was about the most high-tech supplier of high-tech equipment in the whole Batman canon? There was a real James Bond & Q thing going on - but at no point did it ever appear cheesy (at least not to me).
I totally agree the Dark Knight vibe you talked of really works (you didn't outright say that, but that seemed where you were going), but I don't think the things you've cited as challenges to that vibe need to be seen that way. Sure, you could have Teen Titan Robin, Or Adam West BatBoat - but based on what he gave us in BB, I think Nolan could get both Robin and a Batboat right (if he decided that's what he wanted to include of course, naturally).
I respect your view, but I don't really agree. I love the idea of a dark Dark Knight - but his gadgets and sidekicks are part of the overall Batman story. Sure you can associate such things with a happy, smiley silver age cover picture, but wouldn't it be great if we could have Robin/Batbike/BatBoat in a dark Nolan version too? I think so.
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 13-11-2006 09:39
I personally don't care what kinds of vehicles are used as long as there is some point to the story where they are needed. The vehicles do not need to just appear because more toys need to be sold.
Really anything could work. We do not see much of the water that is around the cave, so there could be plenty of water for the batboat. All they have to say is that they found an undergournd river in the cave remodeling. The manor seems to be set up on a hill so there is a possiblity for the jet, although it would take a bigger leap of imagination. A motorcycle could be stashed at the Wayne Enterprises building more easily than a second tumbler, so he could use it instead in a emergency.
You can rationalize any of this stuff to fit well into a story, you just have to accept that there are more possibilities than we were shown in the past.
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 13-11-2006 10:46
As long as I don't hear the words "Batmobile" Batcycle" Batwing" Batcave". It's all good.
Putting the word "Bat" in front of words just reminds me of the 60s tv show where it was kind of cheesy. I like how in Begins, they never say Batmobile but just says "the car." It brought a bit more realism to the character. I mean we already know its the Batmobile.
I know people will disagree but its how I feel.
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 13-11-2006 10:51
Posts: 726 Location: The Shadow Of St Albans Abbey Joined: 28.07.06
kpangilinan wrote:
As long as I don't hear the words "Batmobile" Batcycle" Batwing" Batcave". It's all good.
Putting the word "Bat" in front of words just reminds me of the 60s tv show where it was kind of cheesy. I like how in Begins, they never say Batmobile but just says "the car." It brought a bit more realism to the character. I mean we already know its the Batmobile.
I know people will disagree but its how I feel.
I don't disagree - thats a great point.
Hadn't really considered it before, and I wouldn't EVER want Batman to lose his "Bat"mobile, "Bat"boat or "Bat"Cave - but there was a moodiness to Begins that really worked; I don't think it was because the word Bat wasn't inserted in front of every item he used, but that lack of stating the obvious possibly helped determine the tone. And in turn, the tone helped create the masterpiece that was Begins..........
Edited by real-dark-knight on 13-11-2006 11:06
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 13-11-2006 17:12
real-dark-knight wrote:
But surely TDK666, Wayne Enterprises/Lucius Fox (as portrayed in Begins) was about the most high-tech supplier of high-tech equipment in the whole Batman canon? There was a real James Bond & Q thing going on - but at no point did it ever appear cheesy (at least not to me).
I totally agree the Dark Knight vibe you talked of really works (you didn't outright say that, but that seemed where you were going), but I don't think the things you've cited as challenges to that vibe need to be seen that way. Sure, you could have Teen Titan Robin, Or Adam West BatBoat - but based on what he gave us in BB, I think Nolan could get both Robin and a Batboat right (if he decided that's what he wanted to include of course, naturally).
I respect your view, but I don't really agree. I love the idea of a dark Dark Knight - but his gadgets and sidekicks are part of the overall Batman story. Sure you can associate such things with a happy, smiley silver age cover picture, but wouldn't it be great if we could have Robin/Batbike/BatBoat in a dark Nolan version too? I think so.
i didnt say i associated his gadgets with the adam west version, i said it would be cheesy in a sense that hes pulling out all these gadgets like hes james bond, whereas the nolan batman is a more raw batman, who doesnt need off the wall gizmos to get the job done. What im trying to say is that if batman were in the jla dealing with aliens and god knows what, then it would be logical for him to stuff his belt full of crazy stuff, and get all sorts of vehicles like boats,planes, helicopters, motor cycles and gliders and other bat vehicles i forgot, but a batman who is dealing with realistic villains(thugs, murderers, rapists, mob bosses, mafiosos, straight up physcopaths and worse)would not really need all of those crazy gadgets, i mean honestly, would a guy whos trained to take down 100 hundred men really need tracking batarangs to take down a couple of thugs? only if batman suddenly went lazy on his promise to his parents right? . I think what batman has been given in Batman Begins is a perfect set of tools for batman to use in "nolans gotham". Smoke bombs, batarangs, full protective body armor suit, grapple hook, explosive charges, bat sonar, glider cape and others seem to be a great arsenal for fighting crime, in this case i really dont think its nessecary to give him tracking batarangs,planes, helicopters,boats, tranquilizer darts, explosive batarangs, freeze pellets or other gadgets. And hey, like you said, it'd be cool to see robin in the movies, but hes a difficult character to nail down. If hes TOO young it will take away the "creature of the night" essence that batman had JUST instilled into criminals in BB, because as scary as a giant bat is, if hes rolling around with a 6 year old in green, red and yellow tights, suddenly hes not AS scary anymore. And if hes TOO old its just downright dumb and creepy. We all saw batman and robin, it didnt make sense for a guy HIS SIZE to be walking around in that costume. It was dumb and creepy. At that size and age, he should have been nightwing already. Which brings me to this point, that if the character of Dick Grayson were to ever be put in the nolan batman series, i'd prefer them skip robin and have him just start off as nightwing. Maybe have batman train him, and then by the time we see batman say that dick is ready to fight crime, batman is older(not batman beyond old, just like around 35-36) saying that he does need someone to help him now.
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 13-11-2006 18:22
Posts: 2061 Location: Gotham City Joined: 30.07.05
who says robin needs to be THAT old? a 16 year old is mroe than capable of being robin. i can bench around 200 lbs, and robin can surely do more than that. they can make him the fastest, strongest teen in the world; it doesnt make him unrealistic. besides...assuming that bruce has a gym somewhere in the house, what else would dick be doing?
and as for the fear...i dont see why they would be less scared. the way i see it, batman and robin wouldnt even be seen. throw in some flash bangs, beat them up, then tie them up for the cops....but if they did see robin, they probably wouldnt be as scared. but it wouldnt matter cuz they would get owned, then tell stories to their friends about how robin is crazy.
i think also what nolan is trying to do first and foremost is trying to use the batman character to make a great movie. i really dont think that he is trying to fit as much batman canon in the movie as possible. i will survive batman movies not having robin especially if they are great movies in their own right and not a great "superhero" movie. as far as the gadgets are concerned they would probably not fit with the tone and feel of the movies but if it does serve the story im sure nolan will be able to not go over the top and just use what's neccesary to make a great sequel.
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 13-11-2006 19:10
Posts: 726 Location: The Shadow Of St Albans Abbey Joined: 28.07.06
Nice to meet you goleft85 (your 1st post and my 100th!) - you'll like it here! I do!
I think much of what you've said is true - I can't imagine Nolan will go over the top (at least not based on Begins).
I'll also survive Batman movies not having Robin (especially if aforementioned Begins is anything to go by), but I'd love to see Nolan give him a go...............
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 13-11-2006 19:28
i would love it too.......robin and superman and all these great characters. ive just given up hope that serious filmakers will attempt these kinds of films because of money issues and the terrible stigma of these movies being for the most part terrible carreer moves. i hope that one day we see all these great characters get the treatment they deserve and be in great, thoughtful and interesting movies (batman begins, supe returns, spidey). if they make tons of money im sure one day robin will get his own film and as long as its produced by talented individuals who care about making good movies rather than money then i would be first in line to see it.
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 13-11-2006 20:31
real-dark-knight wrote:
But surely TDK666, Wayne Enterprises/Lucius Fox (as portrayed in Begins) was about the most high-tech supplier of high-tech equipment in the whole Batman canon? There was a real James Bond & Q thing going on - but at no point did it ever appear cheesy (at least not to me).
It did not look cheesy to me either. Just imagine what new items Batman will have now.
Darknight wrote:
I personally don't care what kinds of vehicles are used as long as there is some point to the story where they are needed. The vehicles do not need to just appear because more toys need to be sold.
So true. However, based on history we will see vehicles in the toy line that were not in the movie.
kpangilinan wrote:
As long as I don't hear the words "Batmobile" Batcycle" Batwing" Batcave". It's all good.
Putting the word "Bat" in front of words just reminds me of the 60s tv show where it was kind of cheesy. I like how in Begins, they never say Batmobile but just says "the car." It brought a bit more realism to the character. I mean we already know its the Batmobile.
Good point. The 60?s Batman TV show had everything labeled ?Bat? something and that was cheesy. Just look at the TV Batmobile with all the ?Bat? Labels on the dash and the equipment in the Batcave.
In Batman Begins we get to see a lot of different gadgets, but it?s more along the lines of James Bond where he has this thing he can use. The gadget is not really named in the film, he just has it and uses it. Nolan?s use of the items was almost not noticed. Take the X-Ray thing he uses in the Narrows just before he meets Scarecrow. It makes sense Batman has something that can do that. He did not need to say ?I?m using the BatXRay now? so his using it was just another part of the story.
Keep in mind that Gotham (just like New York City) is on an island and that if Batman needs a car to get around the streets of Gotham, he?ll need a boat to get around the waters too. Look what Nolan did with the Batmobile and think what he could do with a boat :p
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 13-11-2006 20:57
Actually, Batman didn't have an X-ray device; it was actually a mini-night vision camera that can be slipped through small holes.
And there is nothing cheesy about having a boat, Gotham is surrounded by water, and if you think that using a boat to get around an island is cheesy; then you're calling the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Coast Guard, and every single Police Department in the vicinity of a major body of water cheesy.
Never start with the head; the victim gets all fuzzy!
R.I.P. Heath
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 13-11-2006 21:21
i said it wouldnt be LOGICAL in this SETTING, in what way is that calling the navy, air force etc cheesy? the navy needs their boats and planes to fight global threats, batman isnt fighting global threats, as far as the nolan batman, hes still fighting two time criminals and bank robbers. And as for the whole robin being scary thing, i doubt batman and robin would flash their enemies all the time just to account for the fact that robin is nothing but scary right? thats why i gave the idea of just making him start off as nightwing. Picture this phil, remember the future episode of teen titans? where robin was nightwing? imagine a nightwing like that alongside batman in the nolan batman movies. Would you rather THAT or robin? nightwing would just make so much more sense. if you guys really think batman would need a boat in batman begin's rendition of gotham, and its setting and period in batmans career, then thats your opinion, and by all means your entitled to it, i however dont really think he needs one. So far this batman is NOT the dark knight yet, he is not the legend yet, he is not the icon he is in the comics, hes still a ROOKIE, hes still fighting dudes that have tattoos on their arms that say i love mom with pocket knives, i SERIOUSLY dont think he needs a boat for that. It was LOGICAL for him to have one in Batman Returns since in that movie batman is the legend and icon that he is in the comics, and has acquired his deadly and challenging rouges gallery, then it makes sense for him to have all sorts of equipment should the need ever arise to use it, but so far, nolans batman is still a rookie and his need for a boat is questionable. I mean, you guys are talking about how Nolan is making this series realistic, yet you want batman to have a boat now? thats not realistic. Maybe he can have a boat in batman begins 5(sarcasm people, sarcasm), when hes the legendary dark knight, and it makes SENSE and its REALISTIC.
Posts: 2061 Location: Gotham City Joined: 30.07.05
i'm sure lucius fox has some kind of cool boat to offer, lol. it's not totally impossible for him to have a boat in "the dark knight"...bruce practically got the batmobile on the first night as batman.
but i mean...what's the joker gonna do off land? make the fish have smiles? since this is the more evil and sinister joker, i'm sure he wont play tricks. but i hope he still has the cards.
Posts: 2061 Location: Gotham City Joined: 30.07.05
TheDarkKnight666 wrote:
Picture this phil, remember the future episode of teen titans? where robin was nightwing? imagine a nightwing like that alongside batman in the nolan batman movies. Would you rather THAT or robin?
i prefer robin! lol. i doubt they would use the red, green, and yellow color scheme. maybe red and black, or red and green(no yellow)...i have couple ideas, but i'm sure u guys are sick of my robin drawings. lol. but anyways...i'd like to have robin instead cuz that he's more like batman. him becoming nightwing shows his independence. i think having him as robin FIRST makes his becoming of nightwing so much more significant.
but since it's so hard to make robin a cool character in a movie, i'm not counting on it. as long as batman is cool, then w/e.
yeah, i know what your saying. I was just saying as an idea, to pretend like dick had never become robin and just had him be nightwing. But it is inly an idea
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 13-11-2006 23:31
TheDarkKnight666 wrote:
I said it wouldn?t be LOGICAL in this SETTING,
?It?s only an Island when you look at it from the ocean?
-Police Chief Martin Brody,
-Jaws
TheDarkKnight666 wrote:
I mean, you guys are talking about how Nolan is making this series realistic, yet you want batman to have a boat now? that?s not realistic.
Gotham City is surrounded by water, so a boat does make sense at some point for some things. If Nolan chooses to add one or not is debatable, but there is not a real good reason why he could not add one if he wanted too.
TheDarkKnight666 wrote:
And as for the whole Robin being scary thing, I doubt Batman and Robin would flash their enemies all the time just to account for the fact that Robin is nothing but scary right? That?s why I gave the idea of just making him start off as Nightwing.
Nobody has messed with the Batman mythos to the point of having Nightwing come before or instead of Robin and I doubt Nolan will be the one to start. Nolan did great work with Batman and I?m sure if he wanted to he would do just as good a job with Robin.
TheDarkKnight666 wrote:
So far this batman is NOT the dark knight yet, he is not the legend yet, he is not the icon he is in the comics, he?s still a ROOKIE, he?s still fighting dudes that have tattoos on their arms that say I love mom with pocketknives,
Ra?s Al Ghul does not have any tattoos that I know of, and he?s certainly not a rookie. Most moviegoers didn?t know who he was, but the fans knew. Ra?s is as close to Batman?s equal in his Rogues Gallery as any of them will ever come.
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 14-11-2006 00:14
ra's was an interesting choice for a villain because he was so obscure and it worked with the training element in the film.......for the joker however, it would be great to see his origin adapted from "the killing joke" and maybe even bring in harleyquinn to the movie.....her character and their dynamic would be fun to watch
RE: Current "Dark Knight" News & Updates -
Posted on 14-11-2006 11:56
Flabat wrote:
Nobody has messed with the Batman mythos to the point of having Nightwing come before or instead of Robin and I doubt Nolan will be the one to start. Nolan did great work with Batman and I?m sure if he wanted to he would do just as good a job with Robin.
yeah, thats true, it was only an idea anyway, i knew it wouldnt be well recieved because some people like things to be kept only on canon. However, its not like BB was entirely canon, there were alot of things that were changed for the story, why not this?
Flabat wrote:
Ra?s Al Ghul does not have any tattoos that I know of, and he?s certainly not a rookie. Most moviegoers didn?t know who he was, but the fans knew. Ra?s is as close to Batman?s equal in his Rogues Gallery as any of them will ever come.
Your post makes alot of sense. By the tattoo statement, i meant to imply that hes still facing random crooks that are out to loot banks and steal tv's. Take your batman:year one book out, and flip to page 31 and watch as batman almost gets knocked out by 15 year olds holding tv's, thats kind of a BIG differance from the experianced Batman in, lets say hush, where he takes on superman and lays the smackdown on him. Nolan took alot of inspiration from year one in making BB, and it shows. Nolan's batman is still in his year one phase, thats what im trying to say. If you are trained directly from someone, then you will get as good, if not better, than that person. Thats why batman was able to take Ra's, i mean as far i know Ra's never trained batman in the comics, only in batman begins. Take nolans batman as he is now, and make him fight killer croc, lets see how fast he'll die. see what im saying? i'm all for having batman get a boat, just not now.
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. I think what batman has been given in Batman Begins is a perfect set of tools for batman to use in "nolans gotham". Smoke bombs, batarangs, full protective body armor suit, grapple hook, explosive charges, bat sonar, glider cape and others seem to be a great arsenal for fighting crime, in this case i really dont think its nessecary to give him tracking batarangs,planes, helicopters,boats, tranquilizer darts, explosive batarangs, freeze pellets or other gadgets. And hey, like you said, it'd be cool to see robin in the movies, but hes a difficult character to nail down. If hes TOO young it will take away the "creature of the night" essence that batman had JUST instilled into criminals in BB, because as scary as a giant bat is, if hes rolling around with a 6 year old in green, red and yellow tights, suddenly hes not AS scary anymore. And if hes TOO old its just downright dumb and creepy. We all saw batman and robin, it didnt make sense for a guy HIS SIZE to be walking around in that costume. It was dumb and creepy. At that size and age, he should have been nightwing already. Which brings me to this point, that if the character of Dick Grayson were to ever be put in the nolan batman series, i'd prefer them skip robin and have him just start off as nightwing. Maybe have batman train him, and then by the time we see batman say that dick is ready to fight crime, batman is older(not batman beyond old, just like around 35-36) saying that he does need someone to help him now.
